In this episode of the Audience Connection, host Lydia Chan shares a live panel discussion with Jennifer Apy, Partner and CMO at Chief Outsiders and Shveta Berry, Executive Producer and Content Marketing Leader. They explore how algorithms and benchmarks are reshaping the way we create content, often at the expense of authentic storytelling, while organizations increasingly prioritize volume over meaningful audience connections.

Key insights include Shveta's research showing that viewer drop-off rates remain consistent at 40-50% regardless of video length, challenging assumptions about optimal content duration. The conversation reveals how data should inform rather than dictate creative decisions, with Jennifer emphasizing that data represents interactions, not facts, requiring human interpretation and qualitative feedback to understand true audience engagement.

Looking ahead, the panel addresses AI's growing influence on content creation. While AI promises personalized recommendations, it threatens to flood the market with templated content lacking human authenticity. The experts conclude that success isn't about choosing data versus art, but combining both while maintaining authentic human connections through empathetic storytelling that addresses real customer problems.

Essential listening for content creators, marketers, and business leaders navigating modern digital storytelling while preserving authentic audience connections.

 

03:43 How storytelling has become constrained by algorithms and platform rules, with creators becoming "slaves to the algorithms" while trying to capture attention in three seconds

06:09 The decline in content quality as marketing departments prioritize volume over meaningful storytelling, leading to more templated and clickbait content flooding the market

10:11 Understanding your customer journey - who is the customer, how do they buy, and what problems they're trying to solve to create authentic human connections through content

14:00 Testing video length assumptions - research showing that viewer drop-off rates remain consistent at 40-50% regardless of content duration, challenging the "shorter is better" mindset

21:33 How AI will impact storytelling in the future, potentially flooding the market with pattern-based content while making genuine human empathy and authenticity even more valuable differentiators

 

00:00:42:22 - 00:01:09:07

Lydia

Hey guys, welcome back to the show. In this episode, we dive into one of the most relevant tensions facing modern storytellers the balance between art versus data. I'm sharing with you a panel discussion I moderated last year with slate, the very a seasoned executive officer and Gen A.P., a 30 year marketing veteran. We look at what happens when storytelling becomes constrained by algorithms and benchmarks.

 

00:01:09:09 - 00:01:33:13

Lydia

What's lost when content becomes, you know, too templated? And how can we use data, though, to elevate the effectiveness of creativity instead of stifling it? This conversation will give you a fresh perspective on the evolving intersection of art versus analytics. Let's get into it.

 

00:01:33:15 - 00:01:42:04

Lydia

Hi everyone, I'm Lydia, I'm the managing director of casual here in the US. And I am joined by and I'll let our panelists introduce themselves.

 

00:01:42:06 - 00:02:00:16

Jennifer

Hi, I'm Jennifer Apy. I am a partner with Chief Outsiders, which is, one of the largest, chief marketing officer, chief sales officer firms where we go into, companies part time, in order to help them set up their marketing or their sales.

 

00:02:00:17 - 00:02:19:16

Shveta

And I'm Shveta Berry, I am a creative turned marketer. I was a television producer for over a decade. And then I transitioned into doing content marketing for companies, and am now working with a number of clients, including Autodesk, which is where I found casual.

 

00:02:19:18 - 00:02:46:17

Lydia

Amazing. All right, guys, so, this panel is about data versus art, right? So we know, you know, marketing has always been a very data driven, environment department, while content has always been focused on storytelling. But, you know, more and more nowadays, the data is driving how we tell those stories. When I was flying up today, I was listening to a podcast, about psychedelics.

 

00:02:46:19 - 00:03:16:23

Lydia

It's relevant, I promise. And so they were talking about how, basically, as humans, we, we compartmentalize, right? So we create these frameworks of thinking, and, you know, it allows us to obviously survive. And with, you know, data driven kind of marketing, we're starting to see how that kind of affects how we create content. Right? So such as benchmarks like you have to capture their audience, the audience in three seconds.

 

00:03:17:04 - 00:03:43:17

Lydia

Right. Or you know, when you're doing an interview, you have to show the person's face, within 10s of the video. Right? So it's like, how is this affecting the way that we're looking at creativity and where the psychedelics come in? Is that it helps us break out of that framework. Right. So in this panel, we're going to try to sort of see how I guess we can bridge the gap between data and storytelling.

 

00:03:43:17 - 00:03:56:17

Lydia

So I think let's start with, you know, how has storytelling changed? You know, over the past I put ten years here, but really five years because it's just changed so much. And I'd like to start with you later.

 

00:03:56:19 - 00:04:25:07

Shveta

Yeah, I, I think, you know, it's interesting, when I started my career in television, it feels like the Stone ages where it was ads and live TV. And now, you know, it's content on demand. I think in the last five years, we have we have just sort of become. A I'm trying to use a different word than slave, but slaves to the algorithms.

 

00:04:25:08 - 00:04:43:18

Shveta

I'm trying I'm trying to use a more politically correct term where, you know, you're you're creating content for all these different platforms, wherever you want to attract your customers. And you know, you're trying to follow the rules. Oh, I have to get them in three seconds. Oh, it can't be longer than this. Oh, you know, and it's it's dizzying.

 

00:04:43:18 - 00:05:08:21

Shveta

And the rules keep changing. And I think in the past five years, that acceleration has gotten dizzying. And you can truly lose yourself and lose the art of storytelling and all of the rule following. So, I mean, I think that that the tension has gotten even worse in the past five years.

 

00:05:08:23 - 00:05:36:13

Jennifer

I can definitely say that, the human side of storytelling has not changed. But it's becoming harder and harder. And so I think that when you only have five seconds or when you only have, that sound bite, it's harder and harder to tell your story. So as a growth marketer, we're measured on our results, right? How much engagement did we get, how many views did we get, etc., etc..

 

00:05:36:14 - 00:05:58:08

Jennifer

So in order to be able to engage that audience, you have to work even harder to tell that story. And part of it is understanding your audience who you're telling the story to, and how are you going to make that connection and part of it is making sure that you're working with a partner, somebody who really knows how to tell stories in all formats and all channels, no matter what the constraint is.

 

00:05:58:08 - 00:06:09:10

Jennifer

Right? So, so I think that's one thing that hasn't changed about storytelling is it really is about that human connection. It's finding it, developing it and delivering it. It's really hard nowadays.

 

00:06:09:12 - 00:06:17:23

Lydia

So, say that you. So do you think that there has been a decline in quality of storytelling?

 

00:06:18:01 - 00:06:43:21

Shveta

Okay. Well, okay. A couple of things. There is fantastic storytelling out there. We are in it's like an embarrassment of riches, right? I mean, just think about what you could watch tonight. There's so much content. I think the world has become a much noisier place. I do think. With, with brands doing storytelling. I mean, some brands do a beautiful job.

 

00:06:43:21 - 00:07:06:23

Shveta

You guys do a beautiful job, but the quality of storytelling, I mean, I think is definitely suffering. It's definitely, you know, it gets a little clickbaity where I've captured them in three seconds. But then there's not really the the content behind that to support my attention. But I wouldn't say that it suffered everywhere. There's still people doing beautiful work.

 

00:07:07:01 - 00:07:33:02

Jennifer

Yeah, I definitely have seen a decline in, in the quality of content. I, I work for both, consumer as well. That's, B2B companies, everybody has a content marketing program nowadays. I don't think there's any marketing departments doesn't care about content. The thing is, people think that a content marketing program is about volume. And how many pieces that we put out this week, how many videos can we get out this month?

 

00:07:33:04 - 00:07:48:11

Jennifer

And it's not about the quality. So I think that so with these AI tools. Right, we can produce quality pretty fast. You've got people who don't know their audiences and they don't know how to tell a story. So there's a lot more stuff out there that we have to fight against. That's just not great. I.

 

00:07:48:11 - 00:08:05:01

Shveta

Agree, and I'll add one thing. Going back to what Nick said at the beginning about empathy, I find often what's lacking is the empathy there for your for your customer and whatever problem you're trying to help them address. It's, it's that I find often isn't missing.

 

00:08:05:02 - 00:08:29:11

Lydia

So how do we, break through this? Right. How do we, as like storytellers, convince marketers to say, hey, you know, let's invest in, this maybe better piece of content, but also do pieces of content, right? How do we how do we start to make that case?

 

00:08:29:13 - 00:08:49:01

Jennifer

You know, take that as a as a marketer, I'll give you more. All right. So so when I'm working, with the client, trying to figure out what's going to really be cost effective and cost efficient in a marketing program, what we're looking for is who is that customer and how do they buy simply, who is the customer?

 

00:08:49:02 - 00:09:07:02

Jennifer

How do they buy? And I think a lot of people miss that. And when you miss that, you're going to miss the human element, right? You miss the the connection. So so we always start with who is the customer, how do they buy and what do they care about? What do they care about? Do they know they have a problem?

 

00:09:07:04 - 00:09:25:22

Jennifer

If they don't know they have a problem, what are they going to care about that you can tell them that's going to help start that relationship so that they can realize they really do have a problem. Right? So it's the it's really understanding who is the customer, how do they buy and where they at, and how do you meet them, where they are, in order to be able to start that conversation?

 

00:09:26:00 - 00:09:48:01

Jennifer

And I think that when you look at it that way, it's a very human analysis, right? When you look at it that way, then all of a sudden the content becomes clearer, you know, how do you develop that? Content's really going to connect. You're really going to learn to have an emotional connection, because you're actually speaking to humans and trying to help humans solve problems.

 

00:09:48:03 - 00:10:11:04

Shveta

I agree wholeheartedly, it to me, it the way I think about it is always customer first. And if you are fighting to create a piece of content and your argument is centered around, hey, this is what our customers want, this is what they don't know. This is what we need to tell them about. It's a much easier argument to make, especially if you have some data to back it out.

 

00:10:11:04 - 00:10:20:05

Shveta

Like this is what we've heard. You know, those conversations generally tend to go very smoothly in those budgets tend to get approved. Oh.

 

00:10:20:07 - 00:10:38:03

Lydia

Yeah. So, Jen, and our, you know, previous conversations, you talk a lot about the customer journey, right? Can you give us a little bit of, insights, recommendations around what type of storytelling works, where in the customer journey.

 

00:10:38:05 - 00:11:01:16

Jennifer

So, so usually my process for trying to figure this out is I'll talk to customers or prospects directly. You know, what was the problem you're trying to solve? How did you go about trying to solve it and really understand, what channels they're in? What messages resonate? What language do they use to talk about their problem or talk about the solution that drove me?

 

00:11:01:18 - 00:11:31:14

Jennifer

Me? Maybe another insight is asking them when they made the decision. What were they evaluating? So when you have all of those insights and you have an idea of where they're shopping, where they're consuming information, who who is picking authority in that conversation, maybe it's a friend or a colleague. Once you have an understanding of that person as a human and how they try to solve their problems, then you can start to think about, okay, what are some messages I can give to them?

 

00:11:31:14 - 00:11:49:18

Jennifer

What are some of the the value and what are the things of value that I just give to them? They can start that relationship, that conversation. And then as they get to know my brand or anything that they get to know, more about their problem and how they can solve it. How do I continue that conversation?

 

00:11:49:18 - 00:12:12:03

Jennifer

So then I build trust. So so the customer journey is about trying to intercept. I have a whole stream of relevant intercepts, which is great for content marketing, actually. But what is that relevant intercept that's going to start that conversation? And how do you develop that relationship that's eventually going to create a trusting relationship that's going to get in your bio.

 

00:12:12:05 - 00:12:32:09

Lydia

So say when you look at, you know, these different points in the customer journey and specifically like, platform specific, kind of best practices. Can you talk a little bit about your experience in that space, like what type of content works on what platforms? What should people keep in mind?

 

00:12:32:10 - 00:13:00:17

Shveta

As much as I don't love it, the rule about catching their attention early, that's all. You're not going to get on on every platform. You're not going to get, around that one. I think the shorter social platforms, they offer a great opportunity to give tastes, I, you know, I've seen them be very effective in driving people to go to other destinations.

 

00:13:00:19 - 00:13:22:10

Shveta

But you have to be, you know, quick and, energetic. Generally. It is not. It is not, you know, I'm not looking at the Instagrams and the Facebooks and etc. for the deep storytelling. I think YouTube is a great is a better platform for the longer, you know, people want to hang out with your content longer.

 

00:13:22:16 - 00:13:41:22

Shveta

I still think the the catch them at the beginning is very important. But I think, you know, people kind of always obsess about the length, oh, it can't be more than three minutes. It can't be. And and it drives me nuts because, you know, actually, while I was at Autodesk, we did what we did. I kind of wanted to throw this out the window.

 

00:13:41:22 - 00:14:00:03

Shveta

It didn't seem real to me. And we did a bunch of videos in varying lengths and we found that the drop off the percentage was always around the same. It was between 40 and 50%. I can't remember the exact percentage. So if you made a longer video, that just meant they watched for longer. It didn't mean that you only got them.

 

00:14:00:03 - 00:14:26:06

Shveta

They only stuck around for two minutes no matter what. Which was something to to keep in mind when making the content, because a longer video may not actually, as long as it wasn't costing a lot more. It may be worth it because you were capturing their intention for longer. So, you know, I think it's important to sort of like push, push some of those, those rules as well.

 

00:14:26:06 - 00:14:42:16

Shveta

And that is definitely one I will argue with. I think the story needs to be as long as the story needs to be, it shouldn't drag. And I think going back to distribution to on any of these platforms, even if you're following all the rules paid, is such a big you, you have to pay to play. You have to.

 

00:14:42:16 - 00:14:49:11

Shveta

I mean, people are not going to find your content if you're not distributing and putting paid behind it these days. So.

 

00:14:49:12 - 00:15:05:06

Lydia

For sure. Can you talk a little bit more about that 40 to 50% drop off? So are you saying, you know, like if we produced the five minute video, it's dropping off at 50%. We're producing a three minute video. It's dropping off at.

 

00:15:05:08 - 00:15:23:18

Shveta

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, this was just one discrete set of content that I was making at that time. But yes, we found it to be very consistent. And it was a, you know, it was a slow drop off. It wasn't like everyone dropped off it at 43%. It was. It's sort of that's when you started to see, so yeah.

 

00:15:23:18 - 00:15:34:23

Shveta

And we had, you know, like an eight minute, but, you know, we had some longer pieces just because those stories required more time to tell. But they were. Yeah.

 

00:15:35:01 - 00:15:50:23

Lydia

So that's really interesting. That's almost like, you know, in the creation, right in the story arc somewhere where in the middle, like the way that we're telling these stories is it's just they're the audience is done with it.

 

00:15:51:00 - 00:16:09:06

Shveta

Yeah. Yeah. It well, I mean, that's when they started to drop off. A lot of people still stay till the end, but, you know, it's sort of people stay till they get to it. Yeah. I guess we didn't break down all the arts. Like, was there a pivotal moment that was happening? Right. There were also different, to be honest.

 

00:16:09:10 - 00:16:26:13

Shveta

It's not like they were all customer stories or they were all very different pieces of content. I don't know that we could have mapped it like that, but it did. You know, it still drives me crazy when when someone's like, oh, I can't be more than three minutes, you know, but I like, could, you know, we could try it.

 

00:16:26:15 - 00:16:40:08

Shveta

I mean, it shouldn't if it if the story is not, does not warrant it, but, you know, give the story, give yourself time to tell the story properly. But took them in the first three seconds.

 

00:16:40:10 - 00:16:41:02

Jennifer

Yeah. For sure.

 

00:16:41:02 - 00:16:53:09

Lydia

We we still get that question all the time. How long should this video be? And then they tell us 90s because that's, that's kind of the standard now. Yeah. That's, that's the popular one. So I.

 

00:16:53:09 - 00:16:54:10

Shveta

Guess so.

 

00:16:54:10 - 00:17:14:08

Lydia

How can we really use data to create more engaging storytelling, like where can we really optimize data to drive the stories versus these? Again, these standard almost templated ways of creating the story. That makes sense.

 

00:17:14:09 - 00:17:45:06

Jennifer

Well, I do want to say that, one of the things about data is that it's not fact. And this is one of the things I always remind my team at work evaluating the performance of, you know, whatever channel or campaign or content that we're working on is it's not fat. We don't know why they dropped off. We don't know, you know, if if five people viewed it and one person viewed it three times, we don't necessarily know if they were engaged in it or if they just missed it the first time when they couldn't hear it.

 

00:17:45:07 - 00:18:07:06

Jennifer

Right. There's them. So so I would say the data is not fact, but it could be interaction. So for example, if you're testing something and you can get a relative read on the engagement or plays or you know that that you can act, right. That's, that's data that you might want to act like, but, you know, really trying to understand the human side of it.

 

00:18:07:06 - 00:18:25:03

Jennifer

I mean, I always like to ask people get and get actual feedback, as they're doing it. So not just taking the data as it is, but also trying to gain some insights around the to to really understand what it is. Is it that they're more engaged, or is it that we did such a good job in the first 15 seconds that you need to watch it?

 

00:18:25:03 - 00:18:41:08

Jennifer

You want it like that could be another reason for Dropbox. So so always asking the question and really trying to understand from a holistic human level, is, isn't important when looking at the data. It's not just data retention.

 

00:18:41:10 - 00:19:01:11

Shveta

Yeah. I like to to I agree with with everything Jen said. But and I like to also, use kind of prioritize where I want to use my data and what I want to learn from it. You know, like it is it is good to track. When do people start falling off? I also it's not just about that hero piece of content.

 

00:19:01:11 - 00:19:23:08

Shveta

I love testing the promotional pieces of content, and often that's also can be a little more cost effective to to create different social cuts. Test them on different platforms, see what resonates where, you know, that's a much easier proposition than than having two hero pieces. And doing that. And it also tells you something about your audiences on those platforms.

 

00:19:23:08 - 00:19:48:21

Shveta

If you if you do it, you know, consistently and you get a good, good data set and you know, you know, you know exactly what you're testing. This one I want really fast edits and it's snappy. And this one, I want it to be more slow. You know, if you if you know exactly what you're going for. I also think it can be very helpful in understanding, what kinds of stories your audiences are looking for.

 

00:19:48:23 - 00:20:06:23

Shveta

You know, how things perform, especially if you're a, again, in distribution sort of being, fair and equal in how you're distributing things? I have found data to be really helpful directionally there as well.

 

00:20:07:01 - 00:20:33:03

Lydia

Another thing to keep in mind is that, the data will always, it's it's ever changing, as well. Right. So what's the platforms are changing, but also just like, I feel like we're also influenced by what we see on social, what's popular on TikTok, etc., right? That it changes the way, you know, audiences view what brands are putting out there.

 

00:20:33:03 - 00:21:01:04

Lydia

And, the challenge for us as, as storytellers is how do we break through that mold, right? How do we want to go full circle beyond psychedelics and like, think outside the that that norm, that box to, to engage with our audiences. Right. I don't know who here, likes to watch the, the cake videos where it's like it's a pencil and then it really is a cake because they slice it and you.

 

00:21:01:04 - 00:21:33:11

Lydia

No, no, no, I yes. Thank you. But it's because, you know, our brain is seeing it as, as whatever a toaster. Right. So then once that once it cuts into a cake, it breaks that mold. And we're, we're we're surprised. Right? We're like, that is an engaging piece of content. And I think as storytellers, we need to find those clever ways or just those like, really, I don't know, like things that humans can connect with that surprise us.

 

00:21:33:13 - 00:21:47:17

Lydia

I guess we well, we can't have a panel without talking about AI or just any conversation without talking about AI. So, what what's AI's influence in all this now? And and in the future? What do you guys think?

 

00:21:47:19 - 00:22:09:14

Jennifer

Well, first of all, I hope those recommender engines and those are all a form of rudimentary AI, right. Recommending what you're going to watch next. You know, at some point these, these platforms and algorithms are going to get faster such that the recommendation is going to be so seamless. You're not going to realize that you're watching something different than the next person over.

 

00:22:09:14 - 00:22:28:06

Jennifer

And the reason why it's changing is because of something you did in the past. Or, and I'm sure these tools like to use this. Nowadays. They're looking at your eye movements and they're trying to see interrogation, and they're trying to find a way to gauge it. Right. So so I think that technology is going to help, with hyper relevance for an individual.

 

00:22:28:08 - 00:22:31:10

Jennifer

You.

 

00:22:31:12 - 00:22:55:09

Shveta

That sounds cool. I'm going to talk about something totally different. I know it sounds scary. I mean, it sounds creepy. Cool. I think in the time of. I mean, it's scary, right? Like how even if you just ask it to spit out things for you, like with a prompt, I think the human touch just storytelling is going to become so much more important.

 

00:22:55:09 - 00:23:14:11

Shveta

And I think it's also going to be important. I think it's very easy. To fall victim to. Well, we've seen this is what works on this platform. So we have to do it just this way. And then, you know, that might be fine. You're you're following the rules on that platform, but then you kind of look like everybody else.

 

00:23:14:13 - 00:23:38:08

Shveta

I think in the time of AI, it's going to be even more important not to just to, to to not be like fear motivated that I have to follow all these rules or I will fail to sort of think outside the box and think about like, okay, how can I not follow some of the rules? You know, where it won't hurt my performance, but it'll make me stand out and it'll serve my story better.

 

00:23:38:10 - 00:23:48:16

Shveta

Because I think that's going to get even worse in the time of AI because it's all about patterns and recreating those patterns. And you don't want to just be another programmer.

 

00:23:48:18 - 00:24:08:12

Lydia

Yeah, for sure. I think, it's it's just going to flood the market with very same CS type content. Well, thank you both so much, for, you know, giving us your, your insights and advice and thoughts. Any final thoughts as we wrap up this panel?

 

00:24:08:14 - 00:24:28:20

Jennifer

You know, I think we started this panel talking about data versus art. And I think that where we've converged is it is about data and art together, but not forgetting the human aspect, because ultimately that's kind of what creates that connection.

 

00:24:28:22 - 00:24:49:02

Shveta

Yeah, I would say to that just never forget about the empathy for your audience and whatever you make. And I can never replicate that. And yeah, you use data in smart ways. Don't don't let it just completely dictate everything you do.

 

00:24:49:04 - 00:25:11:11

Lydia

Awesome. Well, let's give, Janice, a hand. Thank you guys so much. Thanks for tuning into the Audience Connection podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. If you'd like to connect with me about how I can help you tell better stories and connect better with your audiences. Drop me a note, Lydia at Casual films.com.

 

00:25:11:13 - 00:25:14:06

Lydia

We'll be back with more episodes soon. See you next time.