Discover how to transform complex technology into compelling human stories with Marcus Jones, former Global Head of Branded Video Content at WIRED and AI storytelling expert. Marcus reveals why the biggest mistake tech companies make is leading with features instead of use cases, and shares his proven framework for translating complex concepts into stories that resonate with both technical and business decision-makers.

Drawing from campaigns for AWS, IBM, and major sports leagues, Marcus discusses his role as part translator, part storyteller, bridging the gap between marketing teams and technical product managers. He emphasizes establishing clear stakes and compelling characters while embedding technical narratives within larger, engaging stories about real-world applications and human benefits.

The conversation covers Marcus's practical use of generative AI tools in creative workflows, providing honest insights about where AI excels and where it falls short. Explaining why human storytellers remain irreplaceable for creating surprising, above-average content.

Perfect for content creators, marketers, filmmakers, and anyone tasked with explaining complex technologies, this episode delivers immediately applicable strategies for creating tech content that truly connects with human audiences while predicting new storytelling formats emerging from AI adoption.

01:45 Core storytelling principles from filmmaking: why audience-first approach and understanding story stakes are crucial for tech content success

06:04 Being a translator in tech storytelling: how to adapt complex technical concepts for different audiences (business vs. technical decision-makers)

12:37 Finding the human element in technical stories: connecting with developers and IT professionals through problem-solving narratives

17:31 Common tech marketing mistakes: why leading with features fails and how to build compelling use cases that resonate with audiences

21:11 AI as a creative tool: practical applications for content creators, maintaining authenticity, and why AI writes "average" stories without human direction

Lydia Chan (00:00)
Welcome back to the Audience Connection Podcast. Today's episode is all
about storytelling in the age of emerging technology and how to make the
complex feel human. My guest is Marcus Jones. He's a product storyteller and
AI expert, but also a filmmaker, a former adjunct professor at NYU Tisch, and a
creative leader who's worked in tech publications like Wired, helping
companies like AWS and IBM turn advanced technologies into stories that
resonate.
If you're a storyteller in tech or spend a lot of your time explaining complex
subject matters, you can relate to Marcus's viewpoint on being a translator and
how that's helped him breathe in storytelling principles that work in the tech
space. Marcus is also an early adopter of generative AI. So we unpacked what
it actually means for creatives, when to use it, how to use it, and where it still
falls short.
This episode is full of practical insight and inspiration, so let's dive right in.

Lydia Chan (00:00)
Marcus, welcome to the show. Today we're going to focus on storytelling that  

is specifically in the tech space, right? But first, I would love to just dive a
little bit into your background for our listeners.

Marcus Jones (00:26)
Okay, well Lydia, thank you for having me. I really appreciate the show that
you've put together and the concepts that you're covering. My background
comes from filmmaking. ⁓ I'm an alum of New York University's film school. I
actually taught advanced cinematography there for a few years. And the way
that I approach storytelling is deeply rooted in that education. ⁓
audiences first. We make films, we make shows, we make videos and
commercials for an audience. That audience can be described in a way. They
are a segment. And understanding what would be of value to them is the first
thing that I look at whenever I'm approaching a new story.

Lydia Chan (01:05)
Perfect. And yeah, I would love to kind of hear a little bit more about the
principles from your time behind the camera, right? And the principles that still
really you carry with you in your approach to storytelling and content creation
today, especially in the technology space that you work in.

Marcus Jones (01:45)
Well, the first principle coming back to his audience. think that establishing that
upfront is going to make you the most effective storyteller. The next thing is
understanding if we're talking about video here, ⁓ it's a temporal format. It has
a beginning, middle and end. It has a flow. It has a tone. ⁓So establishing what

that will be is something that will help you level up the
story that you tell. I've found it to be particularly effective to embed stories
about AI within greater stories about sports. A number of the better programs
that I've put together for AWS were about their partnerships with the NFL or
with the PGA or with Bundesliga, a German football league, soccer for us. 
And in each of those stories, we were highlighting how those leagues are using
technology either to reach fans, to enhance the sporting experience, to
broaden the market reach. And the core functionality of each of these AI
systems was woven into a much greater exciting story about those particular
sports.

Lydia Chan (03:03)
Yeah. So I guess what else, right? I think audience is extremely important,
which is why I think for us at Casual, we always start with the audience,
right? Who are we trying to speak to and why do they care about what you're
saying? And let's find that really nugget to base your storytelling around. Right.
But what other aspects of storytelling do you feel, you know, branches still hold
really true in the way that they're approaching the work that they're creating?

Marcus Jones (04:40)
story stakes and characters. First with story stakes, probably the most useful
tool in a storyteller's toolkit. Stakes are why characters do what they do, what's
important to them, what motivates them, and for the audience, why they need
to watch the story in the first place. If it's clear what's at stake for those
characters, then you understand their motivations.
You understand why they must do what they must do. And what will happen if
they don't? So if you want to think about this from a business perspective or a
technology perspective, whenever you're trying to establish a use case, there
needs to be a reason for that use case to be put into place. And those reasons
are, in effect, what the stakes are. The next thing is your characters, who you
choose to be in the film.
You may not always have control over that if this is a commercial or a corporate
video or something like this, but ultimately, if you can have more compelling
people in your film who can be more entertaining, more personable, or bring
something new, then you're also going to create a great piece of content that's
going to be a lot stronger. Taking all this into account, Of course, other basics

like remembering this is a temporal format, you're
going to have to decide what information is going to be included and in what
particular order taking into account perhaps how your audience might be
viewing this. Do you need to front load the story with the most pertinent
information or could that wait for a payoff at the end? And finally, it's just
important that you think of whatever piece of content you're creating as
something that's got to be entertaining. It's got to be worthwhile watching.

Lydia Chan (05:11)
Yeah, for sure. And I think sometimes ⁓ people don't think about all those
different elements upfront, right? And the way that they even put their brief
together. And I think it's super important to just have that top of mind, right? So
that, you know, for those who are the creators or the creatives and ⁓ the
directors, they kind of have that ⁓ solid brief from the marketers to really then
bring the story to life. ⁓
So Marcus, when we worked together, we did a lot of work for top consulting
firms, financial institutions, and now you find yourself creating content in the
tech space. So you said before that you see your role as part translator, part
storyteller. Can you talk a little bit more about what you mean by that, about
being a translator in this space?

Marcus Jones (06:04)
technology can mean anything. It could be something as simple as your
utensils, your forks, your spoons, something that you grab it, you get it right
away. Or it could be something as complex as large language models and
transformer technology. Depending on what you're trying to explain, you've got
to figure out... what elements of that explanation are most relevant to who you're speaking to.
So the first thing that I do whenever I'm approaching a story is I try to figure
out, for the audience that we're speaking to, whether that be business decision
makers or IT decision makers in most cases,
What do they need to understand? What type of context do they need, if any,
⁓
to involve themselves in the story that we're trying to tell? When it comes to
technologies like AI or machine learning or cybersecurity, which are ⁓ all core
passion points of wired audiences, ⁓ there are a whole range of levels in which
we can enter that story. And there's a range of depths that we can take the
story to. ⁓
My job is to figure out what we do need to unearth for a specific audience so
that we can speak to them at their level so that they can see what the value of
listening to the story would be or what the value of understanding the
technology could be.

Lydia Chan (07:25)
Yeah, it's hard, right? Because, know, turning complex or technical ideas into
something that's easily understandable is actually really difficult, right? ⁓ And
you have to look at who your audience is, like you said before. ⁓ You know, is it
a technical viewer or a non-technical viewer, right? And I guess in your
experience, are you seeing brands trying to speak to both in one piece or...
You know, is there a world where we can segment, Hey, you know, here's the
piece of content that's focused on the more technical viewer. And here's the
piece of content that's focused on the more non-technical viewers.

Marcus Jones (08:08)
Well, when we're talking about branded content, especially in the B2B space,
we have to have an appreciation for people's time and interest. While there are
many who do consume whatever content we create passively, perhaps just out
of interest, ⁓ more often than not, people are listening with purpose in mind. So
for that reason, it's important to be highly targeted.

If you're targeting a business decision-maker audience, they're going to be
looking for what is the business value in this so it doesn't necessarily help to to
begin or spend too much time with the technical intricacies or Perhaps the
technical value proposition if you don't make it clear What the business value
proposition is and you ask yourself? Okay, if I only have so much time with this
audience member What do they need to know ⁓ to be affected by the message?

Does a business decision maker need to know how every element of this technology works?

Do we need to go through the full tech stack if you're going to explain core
elements of what the value proposition here is? Alternatively, if you're speaking
to a technical audience, they're going to find some of that higher business
value prop. ⁓
information just fluff or empty. They're going to be looking for things that are
immediately applicable or even actionable to them. In that case, you want to go
into the weeds at a certain level. And that again, it depends on who those IT
decision makers are, what their domain is, what is the scope of their work.
So I think that it's important whenever you're discovering what your story might
be and whenever you're pulling things together to be as specific as possible
when defining who your audience is.

Lydia Chan (09:55)
Yeah, I think that's really interesting too. When you talk about who the
commissioner is as well, like who's the kind of project manager that you're
working alongside and you find that ⁓ it's that translator bit, right? That hat you
have to put on because if you're working with a marketer, they understand
more the sort of... the kind of human benefits of the technology and they know

that that's what you're trying to convey.  ⁓ But when you're working with say, like a product
manager, and in a lot of cases we are, right? We're like speaking directly with
those who are really involved with the tech and they just throw in so much of
the technical stuff in there. ⁓ So you kind of need to have that conversation
around, hey, what's gonna work, what's not gonna work and why, and almost
be an educator, right?

Marcus Jones (10:47)
in my practice, I often have the opportunity to speak to both. I speak to the
marketing team. I speak to the subject matter experts. I speak to everybody in
product. And indeed, they do approach explaining the same technology from
the respective levels that you would expect from each of them. It all depends.
on what the objective is of the piece of content that we're trying to create. I find
it useful to understand as much as I can. Quite often, there's a middle ground
that emerges when I have a full spectrum understanding of what the story
might be. The product teams often are able to surface
elements of whatever that product or service is that the marketers have
missed. Perhaps it was an understanding issue. Perhaps it's a new feature or
capability that's evolved even since the project has begun. ⁓ On the flip side of
that, marketers sometimes have a much clearer...
point of view of what is important because they're looking at it from a
marketing strategy. So taking the time to understand the objectives of whatever
the piece of content that you're creating, even understanding what their KPIs
are going to be for the piece of content that you're creating, makes it a lot
easier to figure out where that story should be anchored.

Lydia Chan (12:19)
Yeah. And how, what is your approach, ⁓ in, you know, figuring out how to, I
guess, still tell like the human elements of, of these stories, right? Like, what's
the approach to figuring that out or finding that information?

Marcus Jones (12:37)
That's a good one. I appreciate that you're raising the question of what is the
human element. In the end, that's lost far too often. If you want to have a great
story, you need to drill down to what the human element is. ⁓ When you're
telling technical stories, more often than not, you don't get there.
but you want to get as close to that as possible. And here's how. We are all
people and we are all in a struggle to create something, whether that be
bringing something new to market, whether it be solving a particular problem.
And once you... focus the story on what's most important to that particular audience member or
that particular target, you are telling a human story to them because you're
helping them with something. So if you want to ⁓ look at it, let's say from the
perspective of a developer.
The role of the developer ⁓ ranges from somebody who is writing code,
somebody who is overseeing product, somebody in this case now is using
technologies like Windsor for a cursor ⁓ or other AI assistants to write code. ⁓
Nonetheless, ⁓ they are not only trying to create something that is...
new, that's exciting, that has value, but they're doing a lot of problem solving.
So if you've got, for example, a story that you want to tell to developers that's
going to make it easier for them to do that job well.
so that they can either focus on something that they find to be more rewarding
or to focus on something that was otherwise being somewhat neglected or
maybe just to get more of the same done. But once you're able to provide them
with solutions to whatever they're going through in their particular role with the
particular task at hand, you are telling a human story.

Lydia Chan (14:37)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think sometimes ⁓ people confuse a little bit of what the
human story means, right? I think there's a lot of focus on ⁓ maybe a really big
emotive piece, or it really focuses on, like a day in the life, or just that
something that's like...
really obvious that it's a human story, but you human stories can be like
anything like you just mentioned, right? It's anything that someone can have a
⁓ emotional connection with, right? And that emotion can be, again, like you
said earlier, it could be humor, could be like relief, it could be, you know, just
like a bit of joy,
⁓ less stress, right? Like all these things are human connections
that we can draw on. That's not necessarily, hey, this
story made me cry or you know it made me like connect with someone in a
different way ⁓ so I think yeah I think that's something that people need to
learn about you know what we mean by creating emotive stories we as in you
know storytellers

Marcus Jones (15:49)
Indeed, and there are opportunities ⁓ to connect in a more classical sense to
human story. A lot of these technologies do have ⁓ elements to them that can
be applied to medicine, that can be applied to ⁓ other elements of our personal
lives and our personal ambitions. And sometimes there is room for that.
If we're talking about video we have the opportunity to create montages where
we can just have a clip or two or sequence that addresses how a technology
will affect people at that level. ⁓
But it always comes back to who you're speaking to, recognizing that you have
so much time to spend with them and signaling to them early on that you are
going to provide them in this precious time with something of value to them and
you're not going to waste it. So figuring out what is the right balance ⁓ of what
type of human storytelling to include is part of the function of the storyteller.

Lydia Chan (16:50)
Yeah, for sure. And you know, Marcus, you've overseen a ton of high profile
campaigns, right? ⁓ You know, from Dodge, AWS, IBM, ⁓ and you know, not to
mention a specific kind of client or particular project, but you know, what have
you seen as like maybe typical challenges or, you know,⁓ Yeah, yeah, I guess like a

pattern of challenges, right, that you face with brands when they're trying to

⁓ create campaigns around, you know, trying to tell a
story of a particular technology or a particular tech product.

Marcus Jones (17:31)
I'd say that the most common mistake that tech companies make when they're
⁓ going to market is taking the approach of being features first.
I can't tell you how difficult it is to understand why I care about a feature. That's
the first thing that I need to know. I need to understand what is it about this
product that you're bringing to market that's going to help me? What does it
solve? How do I even know that you understand what my needs are?
So if you can address that, if you can build that context around your product, if
you can show the use case and be use case first, you're gonna have a much
better success rate at connecting with people.
So whenever I'm I'm I'm engaging with the client, of course I want to
understand what those features are because of course they're going to be
addressed indirectly or directly ⁓ within whatever the piece of content is. But I
make it a point to tease out what is the use case. How can I how can I better
understand this product from seeing from seeing it in actual use or how can I
better understand this product through a demonstration.
And once I get there and once I understand the pain points that it solves, ⁓ it's
much easier to start to explore what are the innovations in whatever feature set
is being rolled out.

Lydia Chan (19:11)
Yeah, I really liked that. I liked ⁓ what you said about use case first and not
necessarily features last, but I think it's not either or, right? I think, you know,
when we're looking at ⁓ any type of product launch, whether that is tech or not
tech, you have to look at you know, the whole marketing funnel, right? Like you have your brand
storytelling, you have your, you know, advertising, you know, you have, again,
the use case kind of base storytelling. And then you have the bottom of the
funnel stuff, which is probably features based, right? It's, know, kind of like the
conversion is there. ⁓ But we really have to look at the whole funnel of
storytelling and not just kind of pick out which ones we're going to invest in.

Marcus Jones (19:58)
Well, I would it's difficult to attack the whole funnel at once. ⁓ So for that
reason, just when we're thinking about what our marketing objectives are,
that's one of the first things that we establish. Like, where are we? Are we at
awareness? Are we at consideration? ⁓ But a story can be told for any position
in the funnel. And establishing that upfront is one of the keys to success.

Lydia Chan (20:25)
for sure, Marcus. ⁓ So I know you're super big on AI. You're an early adopter.
AI is really prevalent now in content creation, right? ⁓ With tools like generative
AI now entering creative workflows, where have you found it most useful? And
I'll layer on another question of how do you maintain authentic storytelling with
the proliferation of AI tools. Because I think that's what a lot of us storytellers
are concerned about. But maybe as practice, once you start using AI tools, you
actually maybe see that the authentic storytelling is still there.

Marcus Jones (20:57)
Most of the time when people talk about AI today, we're referring to generative
AI, because that's what caught the world by storm in 2022. That's what has
been viewed as the biggest threat to the way things have always been done
and the greatest opportunity to do things differently. But AI encompasses much
more than that, including, for example, machine learning. Machine learning is...
reliable, it's explainable, ⁓ but it isn't used for the same purposes that
generative AI is. Machine learning would be more applicable, and let's say
audio recording, that's how noise reduction works these days, or in quality
control looking for flaws within a given video piece or ⁓ cutting a person out from a
background or some of these elements that are in the production process, ⁓
tools that are part of the storyteller or the video storyteller's wheelhouse, but
not necessarily about story. So I think for this conversation, we'll just focus on
generative AI and ⁓ how that applies ⁓ to storytelling in the narrative sense.

Marcus Jones (21:11)
I appreciate that you kept saying AI tools. Most people skip the tool part, but
that's actually how I look at AI. It is a tool. What is the purpose of going to a
department store and buying a bunch of tools and just leaving them around?
They end up just taking up space. They don't do anything. We don't go out and
just buy tools. Nobody does that.
What we do is we go about our lives, we go about our business solving
problems and building new things and realizing I could do this a lot better if I
had a drill or a hammer. And that's the way people should look at AI. We all
have a business function. We all have challenges, have bottlenecks, we have
opportunities that we may or may not be able to access.
And when thinking about AI, you should think about how could I achieve any of
these things better if I had a specific tool to do so? And then what would that
tool look like? So as a storyteller, I understand what I want to say. I understand
how I'm going to say it. But what can be work for me, what could be drudgery
for me sometimes. is the mechanics of putting that together in different formats.

The actual writing aspect of it doesn't need to be as difficult as it needed to be. Of course I'm
going to write my story. Of course I'm going to how it begins, how it ends, what
the messages are, who the speakers, how it flows, what the theme is, what the
tone is. Do I have to do my spell check? Do I have to make sure that everything

flows grammatically? If I'm stumbling on a particular word, do I have to go to a

dictionary? What is a thesaurus anyway?  And who uses those anymore?

Do I have to know everything upfront when I first begin to write? Or can I leave gaps?

Can I tell AI, ⁓ fill in what I'm trying to say when I mean the marble looking object?

Is there a way that I can be more efficient? in some of the work of writing so that

I can be more effective in the art of storytelling. That's the way that I see AI.

Lydia Chan (23:35)
Yeah, I like what you said about you still know what the objective is, right? You,
to a certain extent, know how the story begins and ends. And you're the one
directing to AI, right? Like to sort of tell you how to expand on certain things.
And I think some of that...thinking is lost with maybe folks who just think, AI

can do it all, right? And to say, and you know, it's all in the prompting, right?

To say like, hey AI, know,write me a video for this product video. But that's not how

you should approach it, right? You need to approach it as a storyteller, because

if you don't approach t as a storyteller, what comes out on the other side is not going to reflect.
You know that, right? It's not going to reflect, ⁓ as good of a story as it, as if it
came from an actual storyteller to prompts.

Marcus Jones (24:34)
Well, I would say by definition of the technology, if you were to ask AI to write
your story for you, it's going to write the most probable story, which means it's
going to write the most average story, the most likely story. And nobody wants
to hear that. We don't go to the cinema. Well, we don't go to the cinema. We
don't watch anything looking for the most probable next part of the plot.
We don't want to hear about the most probable character. We want to be
surprised. We want to be enchanted. We want to be delighted. We want to hear
about something that we haven't heard about before. That's not something that
AI does, at least very well. So you as a storyteller and your value as a
storyteller is not diminished, unless you're an average storyteller.
And in that case, if you're an average anything, yes, AI is a threat to you. If
what you write is as good as what chat GBT would have written anyway, well. ⁓
Maybe you're going to want to figure out, do a little reflection. I don't know.
But these are valuable tools. They enable a person to achieve more if they
know how to use them right. And the key to using any AI tool well is to
understand what its purpose is and use it in line with that purpose.

Lydia Chan (25:44)
Yeah, 100%. So is there any, guess, as a lot of ⁓ our listeners, they are ⁓
filmmakers, creative ops, marketers, where have you found AI tools to be the
most helpful in the process of content creation?

Marcus Jones (26:26)
What I appreciate most about that question is how difficult it is for me to
answer it. AI is the first tool ⁓ that I've ever used where I'm always discovering
new ways to use it. And I'm also always discovering new ways it can fail. So
while I would like to say this is it, use AI here, it's great. I can't say that.
I can't rely on AI honestly for anything yet. this everything is about the
capability of the user and I don't want to say that better results couldn't be
achieved by a better user. But in the end I look at AI as my assistant or
the most knowledgeable person in the room besides myself at what I'm trying
to do. Of course, AI is more knowledgeable than all of us if we want to ask a
bigger question. But as far as what the task is at hand, that's something that I'm
piloting. ⁓
Sometimes I find it to be particularly useful for AI to help me with, as I was
saying, some of the finer elements of writing, whether it be a grammatical
thing, maybe it's a structural thing, maybe it's a clarity thing. I could never say,
well, you know what? I can rely on the way AI structures things because as
we've probably all witnessed by now, it tends to structure things around the
same way.
And we can look at materials that are shared with us by our colleagues or put
out there in the public space that were structured by AI and we're like, there
goes that chat GPT bolding again. ⁓ What I will say is that.
If you need to see what some options are, variations on a theme, other ways to
state something or to look at something, or if you want to look around corners,
it is pretty good with that. Sometimes I'll write ⁓ an entire output of any kind,
whether that be just a comment or a full white paper, and I'll ask it, how else
would you state this? And I might get...
Feedback that is unexpected, that helps me ⁓ look at things in a way that I
haven't looked at before. ⁓ I found AI to be useful when I need to put myself in
the shoes ⁓ of someone else or to look at something through somebody else's
set of priorities. That's ⁓ a thing that I would say do with caution. If I were to
say, for example, right now,
I'm going to be interviewed for a podcast ⁓ by Lydia Chan. Tell me what her
priorities are. Well, it'll tell me something. It may have nothing to do with what
your priorities are, but somewhere in there, there might be a nugget that says,
⁓ I understand. Lydia Chan is creating this for the purposes of XYZ. Maybe I
could offer her a better conversation if I talked about a few different things. It
can be useful for that.

Lydia Chan (29:44)
Yeah.

Marcus Jones (29:45)
But I always fall back to look at your AI as or look at your use of AI as an
assistant and don't lose sight of your responsibility ⁓ to make the final call on
things.

Lydia Chan (30:00)
Yeah, I really like that answer, Marcus, ⁓ because I think, I mean, I get that
question a lot, right, ⁓ with various industry peers, like, how are you guys using
AI? What part of the process are you using it in? You know, exactly what I
asked you, and... And you have the right answer, right? It's that it's not exactly pinpointing, hey,
use it here, use it, you know, like directive, use it here, use it here, use it here. ⁓
You kind of almost need it as. Just like attached to you right? It's part of you It's it's

an assistant as you say and you sort of bring it along throughout the whole process, right? Because
there's elements throughout the whole process where you can Ask it a
question or you can refine you can do some brainstorming right and that like
like you said that that can be anywhere from the creative phase to the Post
phase to writing a blog whatever it is. So so I really like that input ⁓

So Marcus, to wrap things up, ⁓ we just talked about AI. And I guess I would
love to hear maybe some of your future predictions, if you have any, right? Like
on where you see ⁓ storytelling going with the proliferation of people adopting
and utilizing these AI tools. What excites you? What worries you?

Marcus Jones (31:26)
I'm excited for new formats, new ways of telling stories. ⁓ And when I say that,
think of how classic cinema and television shows are fundamentally two
different ways of telling stories or YouTube in YouTube shorts or Instagram or
Vine or TikTok are all fundamentally different ways of communicating with each
other.
⁓ I think that AI is going to ⁓ bring forward a new way of storytelling ⁓
that's going to catch
on, you know, it has, of course, already brought forward many new forms of
storytelling. But I wouldn't say that there is one that we could say right now,
yeah, I'm really in the mood for this type of AI storytelling. I don't think we're,
we've, as a society, sort of coalesced around something so singular, but one
day we will. I think storytellers is where I'd like to make my prediction. I would
say that storytellers who are testing and learning
⁓ that are finding how they can leverage AI for their own individual needs are
going to find themselves much better off than those who are not. So I would
encourage anyone, ⁓ no matter what field you're in, to ask yourselves, could AI
help me with this? Or could AI offer any kind of value at this particular moment?

Because the results can be surprising. And to be unaware of how you might be
able to level up what you do with AI opens the door for somebody else who has
discovered that before you and may end up taking an opportunity that you
thought was gonna be yours.

Lydia Chan (33:15)
Perfect. Well, we'll end there. Marcus, thank you so much for joining the show. I
really enjoyed our conversation.

Marcus Jones (33:22)
Thank you Lydia. Appreciate you having me here.