It all starts here

 

In this episode of Audience Connection Podcast, Lydia Chan welcomes seasoned film director, Eternal Polk, whose work spans branded content, music videos, commercials, and award-winning documentaries. Eternal shares his journey from NYU film school to creating his award-winning documentary, "Gaining Ground: The Fight for Black Land," while exploring how brand storytelling has evolved from selling products to selling emotions.

Eternal highlights the moment he recognized advertising's shift toward emotional storytelling and discusses why brands must stay actively engaged with culture rather than observing from a distance. He advocates for diversity in creative teams, suggesting brands need a "Chief Curiosity Officer" who remains connected to cultural movements, and reveals why major campaigns often fall flat.

Tune in for invaluable insights on creating authentic connections with audiences through storytelling. Whether you're a marketer, filmmaker, or brand strategist, Eternal's perspective on balancing data with instinct, embracing diverse voices, and learning from historical cycles will help you craft more resonant and impactful content that truly connects with your audience.

 

03:34 How brand storytelling shifted from selling products to selling emotions through immersive experiences

08:16 When emotional advertising becomes formulaic and loses its connection with audiences

16:40 Why data and metrics alone aren't enough - brands need cultural immersion to truly connect

20:13 The concept of a "Chief Curiosity Officer" - staying curious about audience trends and culture

26:51 How studying history and past brand responses to social issues helps future-proof storytelling

 

Lydia Chan (00:00)

Today I'm joined by Eternal Polk, a seasoned film director and storyteller whose work spans branded content, music videos, commercials, and award-winning documentaries. Eternal has a finger on the pulse when it comes to what makes stories resonate. And his philosophy towards audience connection blends curiosity, culture, and lived experience. We had a thoughtful and energizing conversation about how

 

Brand storytelling has shifted from selling products to selling emotion. Why some campaigns fall flat

 

Lydia Chan (00:33)

and what it really takes to connect with audiences in a lasting way. Eternal cautions marketers on, you know, not just looking at the data, but sometimes it's about instincts. But to have good instincts, you have to invest the time, be a part of the culture you're speaking to, and to listen closely to what moves people.

 

Eternal also puts emphasis on staying endlessly curious. Alright, let's dive right into it.

 

Lydia Chan (00:59)

Eternal, welcome to the show. I'm really looking forward to digging into your expertise as a film director and also your philosophies around audience engagement. But first, let's start with a brief intro about Eternal. Who are you and what are you all about?

 

Eternal (01:17)

We'll see if by the end of this, you'll still extol the virtues of my expertise. But I, you know, would like to say I'm a father first. You know, that's my favorite occupation and a thinker, a creator, an idea generator who somehow became a filmmaker many years ago and was either silly or stubborn.

 

enough to still be a filmmaker. So a little bit about me originally from Indianapolis, Indiana, moved to New York City to go to NYU and put myself through film school during the glory days of film and steam backs and went from there to NFL films and did some

 

really good work there and actually really learned a lot about storytelling there. And then meandered around in this world of freelance, working on music videos and commercials and then finally did branded content stuff and then a feature documentary a couple years ago, Gaining Ground, The Fight for Black Land, which is my first feature length documentary film. And so here we are.

 

Lydia Chan (02:42)

Nice.

 

Eternal (02:42)

And that's

 

a very truncated version. The journey and all of the travails of the journey are way more interesting than that. But for brevity's sake, that is it.

 

Lydia Chan (02:53)

Yeah,

 

let's talk about, audience engagement and, you know, you, you worked in, in such diverse places, right? you know, you know, from the NFL branded content, advertising, music videos, branded documentary, doing your own projects.

 

How do you feel from an audience engagement standpoint, how it shifted from say a product to selling emotions, right? And how or why brands that don't adapt to that will start losing its resonance within the industries that they operate

 

Eternal (03:34)

Well, it was clearly a dividing line and it came, interestingly enough, I stopped working at NFL Films and I really wanted to do commercials, but I also wanted to do feature films. then the BMW series came out and then it's like the golden light just kind of shone over all of us. it was this sort of nexus of...

 

feature film, but it's actually selling a product, but it's not selling the product is selling the experience of the product. And if you can get this product and you can be Clavo into, you know, doing all this amazing stuff. And I was like, wow, this is this is different. But I can tell you, it was a I want to say it was a Korean commercial. They're really, really kind of knocked me over because that was sort of blatant, like

 

product placement-ish because music videos have been doing that already. A lot of hip hop music videos have been using either cars or liquor brands or things like that to kind of get money for the music video. And so you kind of saw that and so was okay. But this commercial was about a man just going along the streets doing

 

It was very emotionally resonant and it looked like a short film. And at the end of it, they said insurance. And I was like, my God, they got me because I bought into this whole idea, the story that was being told, this person being helpful, that resonated with my spirit, being helpful, being of service.

 

And then at the end, they just put the little tag on about the commercial and I said, I mean about the insurance. I said, that's brilliant. Because if I am just thinking that I want life insurance, I'm going to remember that commercial because it touched me in an emotional space. And that's when I started saying, wow, this is the shift in, in advertising. It's not selling the virtues of the product.

 

how much you'll save and how efficient it is was literally, I'm gonna create an experience in front of you and tell a story. And if it resonates with you, maybe you wanna buy our product.

 

Lydia Chan (06:00)

Yeah.

 

Eternal (06:01)

It worked for me because I realized that I didn't want to be sold anything anymore. I was tired of like, just bombarding me with like, you're better than this or, you know, you're 30 % more than this. And so I said, I don't want to be sold anything. And I know the people around me are tired of being pitched to all the time. And so it was very clear that those sorts of things would start to.

 

to start to emerge and then more and more we, you know, it did. And then we started getting into around that time, the study emergence of like immersive and experiential things, which are again, a story that you're in resonating with you. And then you're like, oh, this brand is doing this cool sort of experience. Why I want to be a part of it. So you went from the separation between between the

 

Lydia Chan (06:54)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Eternal (06:59)

consumer in the brand started to decrease to the point where the consumer started to be a part of the brand because it was either their virtues or their morals or their social conversation, all of these entry points where you could be a part of the brand.

 

Lydia Chan (07:16)

Yeah, how do brands kind of find those emotions, Or separate the reasons to believe of a product or a service and find the deeper emotions to story tell off of, right? Because I definitely have recently seen a lot of commercials where...

 

You know, it's, it's a nicely produced commercial. It's, it's obviously doing something. And then all of sudden, all of a sudden you're like, Oh, there it's a, you know, um, cleaning product. And you're like, what?

 

Eternal (07:46)

No.

 

You know, as with anything, it can be overdone. And I think sometimes, you know, it's, sometimes it's hilarious, especially when like you see a pharmaceutical commercial

 

Lydia Chan (08:01)

Yeah.

 

you have to be outdoor doing some activity. You you're biting a burger.

 

Eternal (08:16)

It's clearly

 

the best part of your life, except for all the side effects that you get with taking this. And it's almost the formula. And I think that's where you start to lose that ability. When it becomes formulaic, then it becomes stale. And you're just kind of being lazy and you're not trying to really touch the

 

Lydia Chan (08:37)

Mm-hmm.

 

Eternal (08:47)

the audience because you're trying to get through it and get it done. But I think the kind of the those entry points are really just one being in tune with the people that work for you and allowing different voices to present emerge be heard. There's a real

 

Lydia Chan (09:03)

Hmm.

 

Eternal (09:16)

there's a real interesting story with the Jennifer Hudson show and with her with that the walk of where everyone kind of scenes when the guests come and right and you love it and it basically is the stamp of that show and that was from a junior person in the room. It wasn't someone who was like

 

Lydia Chan (09:31)

I love that.

 

Eternal (09:41)

top level coming up with that idea. It was someone who was young, who had an idea and who actually was empowered to speak and say, Hey, I got an idea. Why don't we do this? And it totally is this thing that everyone looks forward to from that show and became viral.

 

Lydia Chan (09:51)

Yeah.

 

Eternal (09:58)

It's identifiable with that show now. You couldn't imagine that show without it. So, and this is kind of the shift in business that people work for places that they respect or try to that align with their values that are doing good in the world in some way, shape, form, or fashion. And I think that I think if brands remember that they're in a unique position,

 

Lydia Chan (10:18)

Mm-hmm.

 

Eternal (10:26)

in that whatever they do, it's a platform. And that what they do can literally change the world decisions they make. And I'm not talking about just like an ad or a spot where they put their attention, where they put their money, what they stand for, what they don't stand for, can change the world, can change perception, can change lives. And if you realize the

 

the guess the power in that you start to look at how can we what can we do and how can we be most effective because brands and commercials convince you to do things in 15 to 30 seconds sometimes six seconds that is an amazing skill and if you if you can do that in six to 15 to 30 seconds

 

What can you do when you're like really like looking at the people and saying how can we really change or move the needle in some significant way other than just selling? We're going to buy stuff because we need stuff. The question is, how do you differentiate between the things you buy and are you loyal to the things you buy? Do you care about the place that's making

 

Lydia Chan (11:51)

It's like kind of how you build brand loyalty and trust, right? That's like, things, you know, kind of sub sort of human things, that are beyond, again, being sold to with a 15 to 60, 30 second commercial. and I also liked what you said about, you know, ideas come from everywhere, right? And I think that has been.

 

Eternal (11:53)

Mm-hmm.

 

Lydia Chan (12:18)

more widely accepted right nowadays. but still needs, there still needs to be more of that, empowerment, as you said, to sort of bring different voices to the room, on any given project so that again, you're, just getting different perspectives. and I, I want to touch on, you know, you mentioned your

 

Literally changing minds or, you know, making someone make a decision in 30 seconds, right? Or even say longer form to go into a deeper story. How, how do you do that? Right? because when, when we talked earlier, you mentioned kind of keeping an ear on the streets or being very observant of trends and being maybe like just really, in the conversation as a brand.

 

versus, you know, observing from afar. Can you talk a little bit about that?

 

Eternal (13:21)

You know, it's always good to, you know, to have like a 30,000 foot view of things sometimes where you can see the lay of the land and all of that. But I think where brands kind of lose touch is they get into an ivory tower of thinking and acting. So it's sort of like you're looking down and you're you're you're you see movement, but you don't who's moving, who's causing the movement. Why are people moving? And that's where

 

that sort of distance creates confusion for them. And they, by the time it gets to where you're at, it's something different. It's already been done or overdone. And so

 

you do kind of have to stay engaged.

 

I often wondered when I would get an RFP or some call to come up with an idea and then the brand would like went in on TikTok or Instagram or Facebook. I said, do these people even use the platform like that to know like what's actually happening? To know what's going on. I was working on a project last summer and we were

 

You know, it was political in nature. We were talking about different subject matter and it was when Kamala had given the black mama stare and culturally I knew what that what that meant, but I also knew what it meant to black folks. I also knew what it meant in context of the questioning of Kamala's blackness.

 

These are things that sometimes you're just aware of because you're connected to the culture. But also, I was on Instagram, I was on Twitter, and I followed all the little rabbit holes of everyone talking about it, and I knew it was gonna be something that came up. And when we were talking, I just kept insisting we need to talk about it, we need to talk about it. And then maybe like...

 

A week or two later, it kind of blew up and everybody was talking about that particular thing. So you do have to kind of still engage and do the things that you did when you were coming up, when you were. know when you get older, you don't want to be at the club. But sometimes you have to go out, you just do a drive by drive by the club and then see what they're playing inside. And then you kind of or clear. But also, you know, I pay attention to.

 

Lydia Chan (15:56)

Hahaha

 

Eternal (16:09)

my kids, you know, I have younger kids, my, my youngest is 12. And I literally just look to see what she's doing. What, has her attention? I'm like, do that because all of our friends are doing that. And so it's not really complicated. It's just kind of looking and then not getting stuck in your routine of how you do things. And, I always say this, I know people like numbers and I know people like the metrics.

 

Lydia Chan (16:37)

Mm.

 

Eternal (16:40)

I know they love them because they're trying to mitigate risk, but all of the great things that are done were like, Hey, we're going to take a risk at some point. And they just do stuff and you got to kind of consider that, but also consider like, what could possibly be if you just go outside that little box a little bit.

 

Lydia Chan (17:02)

Yeah, for sure. No, think data alone is not enough, right? And data is that 10,000 feet, right? You're kind of observing from afar. You're looking at the metrics, but you're not really... It's the critical thinking part, right, around the metrics. It's like, how do you understand this data, the nuances that went into it? And if you're not a part, again, of the conversation...

 

then you're not going to tease out those things from the data, right? It's like kind of looking at the data without that baseline knowledge, right? And really, I mean, I think real connection is a long-term commitment, right? Like you said, you kind of need to put in the effort, put in the work, be at the club in the corner doing the two-step or something, right? Like, you're like...

 

Eternal (17:52)

I'm definitely at the two-step age.

 

Lydia Chan (17:54)

So, yeah, I think that that's really important when, again, you're trying to be relevant and then, you know, how that informs your storytelling is going to be what sets you apart from others.

 

Eternal (18:13)

But you know what I think part of it is is that I don't know and I don't know if it's always been this way, but I just know that when I was growing up, it was always a thing about knowing different things and exploring different things and be interested in different things. And maybe it was just me, but I do like to know about a little bit about everything.

 

I approached the world with a, with a very strong curiosity and like what, what's going on here. And even if

 

I'm not a part of And I think as someone who is

 

post 50 you would think that that's not my bag. But I could tell you more often than not that I have put younger people on to music or art or design. And I'm like, you don't know about this. This is your generation. And I think there's this sort of thing of people sticking in their boxes where they're really comfortable. And I like to kind of, if I'm not in another box, I'm definitely looking in and like, Hey, what's going on in there? And like,

 

Lydia Chan (19:18)

Yeah.

 

Eternal (19:19)

How is that moving and resonating? Because I'm really curious about people and what moves them. And I think it's a value add to what I do when I'm coming up with all these different ideas and different platforms and different arenas and mediums.

 

Lydia Chan (19:38)

Yeah. I think that's the key, right? It's for brands to also stay curious, is to stay curious about, again, what is happening in kind of the world of their audience, right? Or who they're trying to connect to.

 

Eternal (19:56)

But who is that? Do they have a chief courier officer at the bread? But they probably should have someone that's like, look, your job is just to meander around and just find out what's happening in the world.

 

Lydia Chan (20:00)

Yeah.

 

I like that, I like that. So what

 

does that role look like, right? So Chief Curious Officer.

 

Eternal (20:13)

Yeah, Chief Curiousity Officer, I think we just started a new position. And I think I could take that up and I just travel the world and all I do is just absorb stuff. And I say, hey, look, you know, this is happening in Morocco right now. So if you got something, if you got something going on in the Middle East, then here's some information for you. But I do think you kind of have to have someone who is like that, who is like eager to go out and just kind of see what's happening because

 

Lydia Chan (20:17)

You

 

Mm.

 

Eternal (20:43)

I don't want this, the relevance to be inauthentic and transactional. And I think if you know what people are actually going through and dealing with, you start to realize, I can move this needle a little bit. I can still sell a product and still move a needle where I affect change because of the platform and the resources I have. That's where brands are sort of amazing.

 

If there are resources in their platform, their network, they can make things happen really quick.

 

Lydia Chan (21:19)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And again, that allows them to create, like you said, meaningful content, right? You talked about many brands kind of operating in a bubble and being disconnected from reality and the Super Bowl ad problem. Can you expand a little bit on that? Like why major campaigns kind of maybe fall flat because...

 

you know, it's like the same Z, same Z, same Zs, right? Of the people involved, of again, we're all looking at the same data set, et cetera. Like how do we break away from that again as creators, as filmmakers, and to really produce content that people actually wanna watch, you know?

 

Eternal (22:04)

I did this morning? As I said, I did a search for the best commercial from the 90s. Just like the top commercial from the 90s. And just to see like what was happening at the time, because I really am a big fan of commercials. And there was a time where the anticipation of a Super Bowl commercial was like, we're going to get the best of the best. And it's going to be it's going to be over the top. It's going to be funny. It's going to be ridiculous. And then

 

And then it comes now lately in the last, I want to say five, six, seven years, but not much has really kind of stood out. It's definitely nothing iconic. It definitely anything that anyone's still talking about. And I think part of the problem is, is really a lack of diversity in the people making the spots who are coming up with the creative. And I know when you spend

 

Five million dollars on something or six million or seven million or however much you're spending That you definitely want to make sure it hits but I think that's where you kind of fail because you start getting into Doing what already been done like do I need to see another Budweiser commercial with the with the horses and and like you Like come on.

 

But let's just say you take that same thing with the Clydesdales and you actually have them in a story where they're helping people for real, not helping people get drinks, but actually

 

helping people like farmers or people who are in these locales and you're actually doing something for real. Wouldn't that be cool? That would be like, oh wow.

 

Lydia Chan (23:50)

Yeah, it's like, how does

 

the brand impact the communities around them or just like the story of the product, right? So how does that impact the, I don't know what goes into beer, but like wheat and, know, and telling those stories, within again, these like 30 second commercials versus, I don't know, something that's. Yeah, just that just doesn't hit.

 

Eternal (23:54)

community.

 

Right.

 

Right.

 

Well, and that's the thing. I think when you have different people from different backgrounds who have different points of views and have different entry points to this world, you start to get a little, you know, I know that DEI is the favorite buzzword or anti-DEI is the favorite buzzword today. honestly speaking, if I am, if you are looking at say,

 

car. You're looking to purchase a car.

 

How would you feel if you went to every brand in every car was the exact same car? You want diversity in your car, you know, it's like the things that are just basic because then this brand, maybe they have different features. They have different things that are more attuned to what you want, what your style is, what you feel. So the idea that we want to get rid of diversity or some people want to get rid of diversity.

 

is just ridiculous because it means less options, less choices and less viewpoints of something that we desire, which is the best outcome. And so I think that's a big problem with it. And until they start opening that up to people who are diverse in thought, ideas, positions, backgrounds, it's gonna keep being the same. And they're gonna keep doing something that they think is, they think is cool.

 

But if you don't have someone in that room that's just like, when's the last time you did that thing that you're trying to put in this spot? You didn't know any of the people that do that? Do know the culture? Do you know the nuances of that thing that would actually make that funny? Then you're to keep getting that stuff.

 

And so they just have to do better. I think it opening up the doors to letting different people have an opportunity to do those things and support them in doing it because you don't have to fail. If you haven't done a Super Bowl spot before they have enough experts around to make sure you

 

Lydia Chan (26:28)

that have failed.

 

Eternal (26:29)

That a fail, but to make sure that you actually create something cool, but you got to open it up in my opinion.

 

Lydia Chan (26:36)

Yeah, for sure. well, eternal, mean, to kind of wrap things up, you know, any sort of final, maybe advice or thoughts for brands when they're looking to future proof their storytelling.

 

Eternal (26:51)

To future proof it I Think one of the things that we have to just kind of conceive is that

 

A lot of us are guessing. And some of us are making what we call educated guesses because we've we've experienced enough, we've seen enough, we've gone through enough. And that's the sort of thing, you know, that I think when we talk about this world and I'm just going to speak from my perspective as an older person in in this in this arena that I love.

 

young voices and I love younger voices because you know, sometimes not knowing any better is great because you, you haven't already edited yourself before you try it. You just like, Oh, I'm gonna do this. And then you're like, and then you're like, wow, this worked out. But I also think there's something to be said for having gone through and seen a lot of things. And so you start to say, Oh, this is the cycle or the trend. And if you're around long enough,

 

You see, you know, I know someone that's in the seventies that didn't want to let go of their bell bottoms. That was just waiting for the time when bell bottles would come back in because they will. And it's the same thing. You know, so if you think about it, things are cyclical. People are cyclical and history is important. And as I mentioned earlier, I went back and looked at the top commercials from

 

Lydia Chan (28:16)

Came back twice now.

 

Eternal (28:30)

from back then I looked this time around the Rodney King incident and I just said, okay, what did any of the brands do, any kind of social, like, know, campaign and sure enough, Pepsi and Coca-Cola did initiatives.

 

that were supposed to support the neighborhood and changes and things like that. So it's not new. Like if people think that, you know, George Floyd in a response to that from brands is new, no. Rodney King happened and brands responded and organizations responded. Did all of them stick with their goals? No. Because if they had, then you wouldn't think that George Floyd is new. So, you know, I really think that the

 

you know, history and cycles and just kind of going back and looking and see what happened before and how we did things before and how we responded can help you avoid the pitfalls and the missteps from the past. you know, they say history is one of the best teachers and one of the things that if you study it, hopefully you won't repeat it.

 

And I think that's the way you kind of future proof things a little bit more is that kind of just look and see how people screwed up before it. It's a don't do that. You know, it's not that rocket science in that regard.

 

Lydia Chan (29:57)

Yeah.

 

Yeah,

 

no, I mean, that's, I think that's a great place to end eternal. mean, it's, really the balance of the old and the new, right? Like, you know, young folks, they're, they're still curious. Like you said, their, their minds aren't kind of too tainted in a way. Right. and you know, we got us old folks where it's like, okay. You know, like we see the patterns, we see the cycles. and we learned from that, right? So that bringing that together in conversation is.

 

Eternal (30:20)

you

 

Lydia Chan (30:32)

is the way to go. So, eternal, thank you so much for joining the show. I appreciate you.

 

Eternal (30:34)

Yeah.

 

Thank you for having me. This was fun. This was fun.