It all starts here

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Lydia
This is the Audience Connection podcast presented by Casual, the video partner for Global Brands. Nine offices for continents, creating impactful stories on a global scale with a local touch. I'm your host, Lydia Chan.

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Lydia
In this episode, I am joined by Samantha Charlotte, a talented creative director and screenwriter with an impressive career spanning network television, branded content, and even Hollywood screenwriting. Sam has helped build brand content teams at NBCU, Vivo, and Time magazine.

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Lydia
Our conversation covered the power of storytelling and audience engagement.

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Lydia
We also explored what makes the story truly resonate.

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Lydia
The critical role of change in storytelling and how to build trust with today's savvy audiences.

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Lydia
We also unpacked why creativity is technically a skill.

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Lydia
Meaning yes, we're all creative, but not everyone is a creative capital C.

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Lydia
We wrap things up with how breaking away from linear storytelling can bring more authenticity to your content, so you won't want to miss this one.

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Lydia
Let's dive right in.

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Lydia
All right, Sam, really great to have you here today. Welcome to the Audience Connection podcast. I'm excited for our conversation. So to kick things off, I would love to start with a brief intro about you so you can tell our audience a little bit about your back.

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Samantha
Yeah. Lydia, thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be here. So my name is Samantha Charlotte, and I am a writer, producer, and also a creative director. Coming from media and now on the brand side. So I have always been a storyteller. I graduated college with a BFA. So rather than the more sort of ubiquitous communications degree, I came out of school with a fine arts degree in writing.

00:02:01:02 - 00:02:23:21
Samantha
Which I think really set me up to look at communications from a fine arts standpoint. So definitely less Katie Couric and more Virginia Woolf. And from there, I really found my footing in network TV at places like A&E, Turner, and also Viacom. And in those roles, I was writing and producing the shoulder content for TV shows.

00:02:24:02 - 00:02:49:16
Samantha
So things like promos and web pages and games for apps. And so about ten years ago, when the media industry really began to change in favor of branded content, I moved into that space as a creative director to help found and grow several branded content teams, including NBCU, Vivo, and Time. Time magazine and by night. I am a working screenwriter and a script doctor in Hollywood.

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Lydia
Awesome. So I want to start by really, I guess, defining our audience. Right? Or the audience that, you know, you tend to create content for. I know I might not be as concrete for you, Sam, because, you know, you've worked with so many different types of campaigns and different clients, but I guess, you know, for you, as the expert in the stories that you create.

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Lydia
How would you describe the people that you're creating for?

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Samantha
I think typically I create stories for brands or on behalf of brands. And what I mean by that is, you know, when you work in branded content, you are often on the publisher side of things. So publishers are TV networks like NBC or A&E, or Viacom, or they're places, like Condé Nast and other magazine companies.

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Samantha
And so you're competing with all of the other media partners out there to make content for brands, for pharma or for CPG, or for auto, and so that's one group that I'm working with, but I think always with the goal of creating content for specific brands. Sometimes it's in a partnership with some of these publishers, and other times, as in the role I'm in now, it's just really in-house, for a brand.

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Samantha
And the goal is always to bring brand ethos into the work that I'm doing. While really highlighting a sort of storytelling format and approach.

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Lydia
Yeah. And so when you're looking at, you know, a certain brief and you kind of look at, hey, this is the type of audience that I'm speaking to. How do you kind of, what's your approach to sort of get deeper and identifying, you know, what's going to really resonate with them?

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Samantha
Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the first thing is actually what the brand does. And that's what we call in the industry giving good brief. I'm sure you've heard this term, Lydia, in your world, but, you know, the most important thing we can get from a brand is their brief. And the more specific and the more detailed, the better.

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Samantha
Especially when it comes to what audience they're looking to capture. So, you know, women 18 to 45, is essentially doing very little for us. What I love is to get something super specific, like moms who are feeling bored at home. Or, you know, older males who don't see their doctor enough. The more specific, the better it is for me when I'm thinking about what type of story is going to grab that individual audience.

00:05:59:19 - 00:06:36:17
Samantha
But I think the way the mind sort of philosophy on this is I always ground all of my ideas in insight. So if it means, you know, looking for a specific stat that will get me into an idea that I can ground that idea in, or really just understanding more about my audience. If I use the example of, you know, men who don't go to the doctor finding out that why or, you know, is it that their wives do most of the sort of advocating and caregiving for them when it comes to their physical health?

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Samantha
That type of information allows me to dig deeper into the idea itself and really pull out a sort of story framework that is going to grab the audience and really keep them engaged.

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Lydia
Yeah. For sure. It's sort of making it real. Right. So it's like, because, you know, you can define an audience group with these very, I guess, typical demographic kind of information. But once you associate more of, like, a persona, like, you can actually pinpoint this individual in your life is like, all right, that's, you know, John, like, I know this person, right?

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Lydia
Then you can really create that connection. I want to talk about, you know, you talked about, like, what constitutes a real story. Right? But what do you mean by that?

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Samantha
I think especially in advertising, you know, we've got so used to, I think, watching commercials that the impetus is really to think about a story as just sort of a series of facts or like a chronology. You know, and then this happens, and then this happens. But I think that's actually false. Because when you look at what a story is at, it's building blocks; a story is really defined by one word, and that word is change.

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Samantha
So it begins with something that sort of turns the status quo of life upside down for the person, who's the star of our story, whether that be a real person or a fictional character. And then, the story demonstrates how that main character makes choices to meet that challenge, and then they change in the process. So if there's no change, there's no story.

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Samantha
And that sort of arc that I just presented is it's actually called a story arc. And I guarantee if you sort of think back to the last, like, truly memorable piece of content you've watched, even from a commercial standpoint, there's a story arc that's present, even if it's just in three short beats. It's present in the building blocks of that narrative.

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Samantha
And I think with the proliferation of content available these days and, you know, combined with our sort of increasingly short attention span because of social media and the internet, I think brands are starting to realize that the days of sort of interrupting audiences with like a splashy ad or like seducing them with like, just overblown claims about their product, they're just done.

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Samantha
And so they have to find really authentic ways to really grab and hold their audience's attention. And my feeling is the way to do that is through stories.

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Lydia
Yeah. For sure. And is that what you mean by in our previous conversation, you know, you mentioned how storytelling there's still like a very linear process, and it shouldn't be? Right? Can you expand on that a little bit more?

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Samantha
Well, I think when you mentioned the word linear process, it's this idea that you have to tell a story from beginning to end, especially with real people in the way that it happened. So if I'm interviewing a person and, you know, perhaps they had a heart attack, and I want to get to their feelings about the heart attack or, like, what they've experienced.

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Samantha
I don't necessarily need to go in chronological order. Perhaps I want to talk about that day and work backwards. Or maybe I want to use a metaphor for what a heart attack is and how it sort of explodes your life and makes you look differently at your mortality. So there's all different ways to tell a story.

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Samantha
And what I'm ultimately always looking for is that humanity, that authenticity, and the truth. And getting to the truth doesn't mean just telling a story in a straight line. Sometimes the truth is completely out of order. Sometimes it's fragments of different aspects of your life that come together to create a satisfying whole. It really is about looking at that individual story and finding the best way to tell it.

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Samantha
And I think it's no different than, like, you know, when you talked about the fundamentals of design, form should always follow function.

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Lydia
Yeah. And that's what's so great about the industry that we're in. Right. Or rather, as storytellers, you know, you can create a story or an edit in so many different ways. There's no at least there shouldn't be a formula, right? And I think, a lot of times, when working with clients or working with brands, they have a formula or they think there should be a formula.

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Lydia
How do you navigate that conversation?

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Samantha
Well, I think, you know, I always try to keep the essence of what we're trying to say in mind. And when I do get pushback from a client or from, you know, an internal brand stakeholder, I try to remind them to really think about, you know, what would move them outside of marketing, outside of the job that they do when they're just at home sitting on the couch with their partner watching Netflix?

00:11:45:23 - 00:12:07:12
Samantha
What's the thing that's going to move them? Is it something sort of safe and, that sort of just, you know, floats off you after you've watched it and you don't really take it in, remember it? Or is it the kind of unique, radical, sometimes dangerous work that sticks out in your mind and keeps you up at night?

00:12:07:14 - 00:12:29:10
Samantha
And I think when you put it in the framework of what they care about outside of work, it makes them realize that you don't necessarily have to always stick to what's safe or what you know, or what you think the brand is going to like. Sometimes, you know, sometimes I'm a professor, sometimes I'm, you know, a drill sergeant.

00:12:29:12 - 00:12:48:18
Samantha
Sometimes I'm a therapist. But the goal is always to try and get your client, or the stakeholder, as close to the vision that you see without telling them what to do, but really showing them why it's best to do what you're saying.

00:12:48:19 - 00:13:09:11
Lydia
Yeah, it's sort of bringing them along. Right. And making sure that they have a little bit of a stake in it. Because, you know, that's, I think, that sort of separation, where, you know, stakeholder just kind of comes in, whether midway or at the end, and sort of has a look at the piece of work, and it somehow just doesn't resonate with them.

00:13:09:13 - 00:13:17:12
Lydia
That's where, you know, a lot of changes. Well, will happen like the debrief has changed essentially.

00:13:17:14 - 00:13:41:04
Samantha
Absolutely. And the other thing I think, too, and it goes against a lot of sort of popular thinking, especially things I hear in the workplace. You know, there's a phrase that I hear all the time, which is everyone is a creative. And I think that's fundamentally wrong. And it's not a dig on anyone. I think what the phrase actually should be is that everyone has good ideas, and that's true ideas.

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Samantha
Good ideas can come from anywhere but creativity. And I think this fallacy actually creates a lot of issues. In the type of work that we do. Creativity is a skill, just like woodworking. Or, you know, learning how to work on Hvac systems. It is a very technical skill that you have to go to school for that you really have to learn.

00:14:06:07 - 00:14:29:15
Samantha
And there's all different aspects of creativity. I don't know how to run a camera. And, you know, my counterparts in creative don't necessarily know how to write a script. So there's so much that goes into it. And I, and I try to remind the folks that I work with that, you know, this isn't a sort of pop star concert.

00:14:29:15 - 00:14:50:00
Samantha
It's a symphony. Everybody has a role to play. Nobody is meant to stand out in front and sing in front of a mic. We are an orchestra, and we're all working together. And knowing where we all fit in and having those swim lanes should actually help with creativity and not hurt it.

00:14:50:02 - 00:15:15:13
Lydia
I totally agree. And this is something that I want to circle back to. And in the end, because, you know, you mentioned having a fine arts degree, and I think that kind of detail, or that, like, knowledge is, is really crucial in and sort of, bringing something from, say, the naked eye to say, like, hey, this is kind of good, right?

00:15:15:13 - 00:15:40:11
Lydia
Like, it's okay. It passes to. Wow. That was an amazing piece of content, or an amazing, you know, video, or again, an amazing graphic design, right? That doesn't come from, as you say, just anyone. Right? It comes from a creative. It comes from, you know, someone that knows the nuances behind how to get from good to great and those things.

00:15:40:13 - 00:16:04:21
Samantha
And you know what? It's so funny that you bring that up because I love Ira Glass, and he talks about this concept of the gap, which is the gap between your taste, which good creatives will have, you know, sort of from birth, and your ability to execute on that taste. And I think we as creatives spend our whole lives trying to bridge that gap.

00:16:04:23 - 00:16:31:18
Samantha
And really get closer to the vision we have of good and being able to execute on that vision. And I think when you talk to people who don't have a creative background or don't necessarily have an education in that field, they might have good taste, but they can't necessarily tell you step by step how to get from their taste to the final product.

00:16:31:18 - 00:16:51:22
Samantha
And I think that's really, in a way, what separates, you know, someone who works in creative from someone who has good ideas. And it can often be difficult, you know, when you have a client trying to give feedback because they don't necessarily have that basis of what words do I use?

00:16:52:00 - 00:17:11:20
Samantha
What lexicon do they sort of speak from to get from good to great? And that's, you know, part of my job as a creative director is to be able to translate what they're saying, in layman's terms, and then take that back to my creative counterparts and explain it in, in sort of finely tuned creative terms.

00:17:11:22 - 00:17:48:18
Lydia
Absolutely. Agree. So I know we steered a little bit off course here. So I want to go back to the story. During our previous conversation, you talked about finding the right people, right? Because for a lot of brands, you know, finding that really great story, whether it's within their customer base or their patient base, might look right on paper, but then when it comes to filmmaking, right, and bringing them in front of the camera, that can be a whole different story, right?

00:17:48:18 - 00:18:01:11
Lydia
So how do you find the right kind of contributor individual? When doing, when researching these stories?

00:18:01:13 - 00:18:26:12
Samantha
Yeah. I mean, I think it's a combination of sort of your gut reaction. And that goes back to this idea of your taste. You know, so much of being a creative director is about having good taste and also just being able to recognize technical skill. And, and some of that, you know, I just had a conversation with one of my colleagues.

00:18:26:17 - 00:19:09:04
Samantha
Someone could say that they're going to make the next Inglorious Bastards. And they could show that in their deck. But you, as a creative director, have to be able to see what they're saying versus what they're actually going to do, and that's challenging. It can be really tricky. But looking at, you know, their existing work, looking at how they speak, the way that they sort of articulate themselves, how they collaborate, where their creative impulses lie, who they aspire to be, who they like.

00:19:09:06 - 00:19:33:13
Samantha
And also, just really, when you're talking about a project, you know, getting a sense of how they're going to elevate it. A big part of my job is to have a vision and then build a team to execute it. But I don't want to just be, you know, a sort of dictator. You know, I want partners that are going to elevate in every aspect of that video.

00:19:33:13 - 00:19:55:07
Samantha
So it could be something as simple as sound design. And that's not simple. You know, making a video with really strong sound design can change the whole sort of tenor and tone of what you're making. And I could suggest things; I can give references, but, you know, I'm not in the studio. I'm not the one mixing the sound.

00:19:55:07 - 00:20:17:18
Samantha
And I really want somebody who's going to bring their own unique sensibilities to that project. So that's really what I'm looking for. I'm trying to find individuals with a really strong perspective, a really strong POV. Even if it's different from my own, especially if it's different from my own. And, you know, I'm sort of my toughest critic.

00:20:17:18 - 00:20:30:13
Samantha
I mean, I think I'm a pretty decent arbiter of good. So when someone can change my mind or show me something unexpected, it's the fastest way for me to fall in love with them.

00:20:30:15 - 00:20:56:05
Lydia
Yeah. And as you just mentioned before. Right. It's a symphony. So, you know, throughout the whole production process or even the creative phase, there's a lot of other individuals involved, right? That can, again, just elevate the piece from being okay, that's pretty good, to, oh, man, this is a really great piece of content.

00:20:56:06 - 00:21:21:13
Lydia
You mentioned this really great story, this really great project. When we first booked, I think it's a really great example of how, you know, creative decisions truly affected the way the story sort of played out. And there was about this gentleman who I believe had prostate cancer. Can you tell, can you talk a little bit more about this project?

00:21:21:13 - 00:21:32:10
Lydia
And you know how I guess the approach to building his story, really, you were able to make that human connection to the audience?

00:21:32:12 - 00:21:55:22
Samantha
Yeah. I mean, I can't speak specifically to the project, but I can talk sort of generally about the way that everything sort of came together. You know, I think when you look at any docu-style product, what you're ultimately trying to do is to take real life and make it cinematic.

00:21:56:00 - 00:22:17:17
Samantha
And that can be an incredible challenge because there are people who have really powerful stories. And there are people who, you know, kind of have everyday lives. And it's hard to pull out a story from sort of the day-to-day inner workings of their lives. But I think that everyone does have a story to tell.

00:22:17:19 - 00:22:41:11
Samantha
So a big part of what I do when I'm approaching docu-style filmmaking is to figure out, you know, what makes a person tick. I really try to go back to the very beginning and have a really strong, focused discovery interview with the person that we're going to use. As our subject, try to figure out, as I said, you know, about storytelling.

00:22:41:11 - 00:23:06:11
Samantha
It's all about change. What's really changed in their lives? And what has been sort of the impetus for that change? In screenwriting, we call that the why now question. You know, why in this moment did this person did the circumstances of this person's life became so either unbearable or extreme or whatever it is that they felt that in this moment they needed to change?

00:23:06:13 - 00:23:31:06
Samantha
So really identifying that why now is super crucial and then determining, you know what? Where did that person start, and where did they go? So like, obviously in the story you're talking about, prostate cancer played a big role. But then it becomes a conversation of, you know, who was this person? And if that was the impetus for the change, you know, where did they start?

00:23:31:07 - 00:23:56:21
Samantha
And how did that change present itself in all the sort of intricacy and nuance of that person's life? So, for instance, if I'm talking about somebody who, you know, never felt that life mattered, but then they had something traumatic happen to them, and they decided to start slowing down and really appreciating what they had. That's a change from, you know, a negative charge to a positive charge.

00:23:56:23 - 00:24:19:10
Samantha
So that's always what we're sort of looking for. And I think, you know, that's the sort of building block creating that story. But then as you start to build it out and as you sort of add color to it, as it were, you're also then, that's where you're really tapping your team. How are you going to take that, that sort of broad idea, and bring it to life visually?

00:24:19:10 - 00:24:42:00
Samantha
And how are you going to amplify it in all aspects of that video production, whether it be, you know, the way that the director shoots it to tell that super profound story, how you're actually going to tell it, is it going to be through animation? Are you going to do it with, you know, all insert photos? Are you going to show the person on camera being interviewed?

00:24:42:00 - 00:25:00:09
Samantha
Maybe it's all narration. There's just so many ways to sort of skin the cat. So once you've sort of built the foundation of your story, then it's really about getting those partners in place and really relying on each of them to do their part to bring that story to life.

00:25:00:11 - 00:25:08:21
Lydia
Yeah. And what do you mean by, you know, taking something from real life and making it cinematic?

00:25:08:23 - 00:25:32:08
Samantha
Yeah. I mean, it's interesting. I think, you know, I, for better or worse, I look at everybody in terms of character. You know, I see sort of the evolution of their lives. I try to find, you know, what they want out of life. What's their biggest challenge? And, you know, sort of achieving that, what. What's standing in their way?

00:25:32:10 - 00:26:00:07
Samantha
And what is the path that they're sort of taking or have taken to get there? It's just the way my mind works. It sort of thinks in storytelling. And when you're working with real people, you know, it's I think it's very simple to say, Okay, well, just, you know, go out to wherever they live and shoot them, you know, in their home, making coffee, maybe staring out a window, you know, whatever.

00:26:00:07 - 00:26:35:05
Samantha
But I think that's the classic shot list. Yeah, exactly. I think that's the kind of stuff that people watch, and they're like, you know, click it right off. I've seen this all before. But I think when you can take nuance and really look at somebody's life as something deeper than just who they are. And what I mean by that is like, a metaphor for how to live or some sort of deeper meaning that can be gleaned from their story.

00:26:35:07 - 00:26:58:14
Samantha
That's when you really hit pay dirt, because I think people watch stories not to find out about who, especially docs, not to find out about who you know the subjects are, but to find out more about who they are. And when you can offer them that insight through another person's journey, through another person's story. It builds trust. And for brands, trust is key.

00:27:01:05 - 00:27:33:19
Lydia
Yeah, no, for sure. I think, and this is the wrong word for it, but it's, it's finding a way to traumatize. Right. What is there for it to come out on camera? Right. Because I think, with a lot of, with some, you know, brands that we work with or some clients that we work with, there's this sort of they don't take the risks to, to kind of go a little bit bigger right on screen.

00:27:33:21 - 00:27:58:11
Lydia
Because they, they don't feel like that's going to, I don't know, deliver in a way that's authentic. But as again, viewers ourselves, we like content that is just a little bit not over the top, but it has to be dramatized in a certain way, right? For it to really hit.

00:27:58:12 - 00:28:31:10
Samantha
Yeah, exactly. I think Robert McKee, who's the founder of sort of modern storytelling, he has a great quote about how when conditions are sort of familiar and consistent are like lizard brains from back when we were just animals, disregard those conditions, but when we're under threat, our survival mechanisms kick in, and we sort through everything. We've sort of previously learned to explain our reality, and then we encode it because we've been in danger.

00:28:31:13 - 00:29:01:05
Samantha
So we know what to do for next time. So a story, especially a story with like a true dramatic arc, mimics that process. And so people who are watching will encode it differently because of the way in which you're sharing that content with them. And so, you know, I understand from a client perspective the sort of knee-jerk reaction to want the content you create to be sort of safe.

00:29:01:07 - 00:29:20:18
Samantha
But I think safety does not translate into memorable. We need our audiences to make to form a deeper connection. And you can't do that through things that they've seen before because it just washes over them and, you know, sort of goes in one ear and out the other.

00:29:20:19 - 00:29:45:10
Lydia
Yeah. So you mentioned that building trust, right? I think that is, you know, the kind of number one priority for individuals as well as brands. So what's your insight on how to build trust with viewers these days when they're smarter, right? They're savvier. They're content creators themselves.

00:29:45:12 - 00:30:10:04
Samantha
Yeah. I mean, I think the most important thing brands need to understand is that audiences don't need you. And I know that sounds harsh, but that is the mindset I believe we all really need to be taking as marketers in order to innovate. Because viewing audiences have gotten smarter. They've gotten more savvy, and they're more really judgmental than ever before.

00:30:10:06 - 00:30:37:15
Samantha
And their bias detectors are, like, super fine-tuned so they know when you're lying to them. They know when you're, like I said, overstating your benefits or you're, like, repeatedly exposing them to sort of hollowed-out, glossy, meaningless storytelling, and they'll tune out. Because the reality is that the information that you provide customers with has to be providing a utility that's greater than just product info.

00:30:37:15 - 00:31:03:01
Samantha
That's what I was saying before about really teaching them about the way the world works or about themselves. You have to offer them a meaningful experience. Through a story that I think teaches them something, you know, beyond what your product can offer and really provides them with like a genuine feeling of catharsis. Because that's what translates to trust.

00:31:03:03 - 00:31:17:10
Samantha
And it also translates to, you know, customer conversion. Because you're giving them more than what they came in with. And it sticks in their brain, and that's what matters.

00:31:17:12 - 00:31:39:14
Lydia
Yeah. I read somewhere—I mean, you know, you have to earn people's attention nowadays, right? And I think that is where just like the foundation of your brand thinking should be; it's like, how do I earn this person's attention versus shoving things down their throats?

00:31:39:16 - 00:32:06:09
Samantha
Yeah. I think for a period of time, you know, brands have been under the impression that they're the smarter one in the equation. But audiences are super smart, and, you know, we've been now exposed to TV, the generations that are coming up, like my four-year-old. He watches television; he sees YouTube videos. He, you know, watches Instagram and TikTok clips, which probably says more about my parenting than it should.

00:32:06:14 - 00:32:29:09
Samantha
But I think that, like, we have to be aware of the fact that from a very, very young age, our new sort of crop of consumers are being exposed on a regular basis to the mechanics of what's good and what's bad and what they like and what they don't like when it comes to media and to ads.

00:32:29:11 - 00:33:03:00
Samantha
And they're smarter and more savvy and more technologically adept than any consumers ever have been. So I think the balance is sort of shifting, and we have to look at our audiences as the smarter party in the equation and really work to impress them and to be authentic with them and to not take their trust and their viewership for granted, because there's lots of other places they can turn.

00:33:03:02 - 00:33:23:04
Lydia
Yeah, absolutely. So, Sam, as we kind of bring our discussion to a close. What's your kind of, you know, leave behind the advice on how brands can continue to adapt and stay relevant with their audiences and, yeah, really meet them where they're at.

00:33:23:06 - 00:34:09:06
Samantha
Yeah. I mean, you know, I think since like the days of Aristotle, stories have been the most powerful way to capture audiences and to put ideas out into the world. And, I mean, that's the better part of, like, 2500 years. And that fact has never changed. And I think if there's a lesson in that, especially, you know, today, it's that we shouldn't let technology or AI or new platforms distract us as marketers and creatives and make us believe that the medium is the message and that that's all you need, because I think without story, all you have is information without connection and ideas without impact.

00:34:09:06 - 00:34:30:10
Samantha
Really. And obviously it's essential, you know, to move and to adapt with the changing landscape. But I think it has to always be with this sort of core focus of why does this matter to my audience? And how will it stay with them? You know, long after the screen goes black.

00:34:30:12 - 00:34:39:14
Lydia
I think that's a great place to start. Thank you so much, Sam, for this amazing conversation. And thank you for coming on the show.

00:34:39:16 - 00:34:41:19
Samantha
It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks, Lydia.